Skip to content

Build1 publisher2 min readPublished

Longer fine-tuning carries a cat-loving trait through all five distillation hops

An experiment ran the subliminal learning pipeline five times over on Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct, making each student the next teacher. The cat trait held near 90 percent under longer training and scattered under shorter.

The Engineer · Build desk

Photograph accompanying Longer fine-tuning carries a cat-loving trait through all five distillation hops
Photo: lesswrong.com

What happened

  • A project write-up chained the subliminal learning pipeline through successive distillation hops on Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct, biasing only the first teacher with a system prompt and then making each fine-tuned student the next teacher.
  • In the longer-training cat setup, cat-ep6, the final hop came in at 96.0, 90.0 and 84.4 percent, and no seed at any hop fell below about 71.7 percent.
  • The shorter-training setup, cat-ep2, scattered by seed: one seed ended near 61.8 percent by hop 5 while the other two finished below 10.0 percent, declining unevenly with spikes on the way.
  • Mechanistic measures taken from the literature did not reliably track whether a trait survived the chain, though they consistently told the high-epoch runs from the low-epoch ones.

Compiled by The EngineerSomething wrong?How this is made

Why it matters

  • exposure A team distilling from an already-distilled checkpoint inherits whatever an upstream system prompt installed, and the artefact available for inspection is a file of number sequences.
  • decision Anyone setting epoch count for a distillation run is also setting how durable an inherited trait will be several hops downstream.
  • cost Verifying a chain this way lands on the training budget, since every hop needs its own fine-tune and its own generation pass before a single answer can be graded.

Take the final hop of each cat chain. The cat-ep6 seeds land at 96.0, 90.0 and 84.4 percent, a spread of 11.6 points [9][19]. Their mean, 90.1 percent, sits about 2.6 points under the 92.7 percent the write-up cites as the chain's reference cat rate [18][10][25]. The cat-ep2 seeds land at 61.8 percent, and below 10.0 percent twice over, a spread of at least 51.8 points [11][20]. "This suggests that the low-epoch regime is a bit more erratic, as compared to the relatively low-variance high-epoch regime we see for the cat-ep6," the write-up says [27].

Sorting ep2 chains from ep6 chains is something anyone holding the training config can already do. The seed-level question is the one an auditor has when all they hold is a checkpoint, and it stays open [11]. The write-up describes its measures as coming from the literature and does not say which ones [17].

Across every seed and every hop, cat-ep6 never dropped below about 71.7 percent, which is 67.7 points above the base model's 4.0 percent cat rate [9][8][24]. The cat-ep2 decline was not monotonic either, with sudden spikes at some hops [11].

The weak trait went the other way. Owl expression fell from 100.0 percent to roughly 0.0 percent in a single hop, in both owl setups and all seeds, and stayed near the base model's 0.0 percent afterwards [12][8]. The write-up calls this a sign of capability collapse, and reports that the models also start answering "Qwen" to a significant share of the favourite-animal questions [12][13].

Repeating this on your own lineage is a training job. Four setups across three seeds is 12 chains, each run out to hop 5, so 60 student fine-tunes [21][26]. Every hop needs its teacher to emit 10,000 number sequences, which totals 600,000 sequences [23]. Scoring is 50 favourite-animal question variants at 100 completions per model, so 300,000 graded answers [7][22].

For those percentages to say anything about a pipeline other than this one, a few things have to hold. Every teacher and student here is the same Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct base [4]. The hyperparameters come from Blank et al., with only the epoch count varied [5]. Cat was chosen because the original subliminal learning paper already showed it transferring one hop in Qwen2.5-7B, and owl because it was the headline trait that transferred in GPT 4.1 nano and not in Qwen [6]. Three seeds per cell produced a spread of at least 51.8 points in one of them [20].

The project was done under BlueDot Impact's Technical AI Safety project course and funded by BlueDot Impact Rapid Grants [16].

What to watch

  • Whether the epoch dependence reproduces on a base model that is not Qwen2.5-7B-Instruct, since every teacher and student in this run shared one base.
  • Whether anyone publishes a mechanistic measure that predicts survival for individual seeds inside one epoch setting.
  • Whether the "Qwen" answers show up in strong-trait chains as well. If they do, the collapse tracks training length.
Loading claim ledger
Loading source directory links
Loading share composer
Loading topic controls
Loading related stories